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Force-V4 Forum Index » RC45 Discussion » PGM blink
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fogrider



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 63
Location: East Yorkshire

  

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: PGM blink  


After reviewing the cured hot yellows and maybe weak idle mixture, I finally noticed that the very brief red blink coincides with a very brief ignition cut-out. The rev ctr needle drops for the same brief time as the red blink.

It doesn't stop the engine, just that brief stumble , only while warming up.

I can't figure this out, it's annoying , especially on the road.

Any ideas anyone ?
Seemed a good idea to split this off as a new topic.....

Regards all,Terry.
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moto16



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
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Location: UK

  

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:26 am    Post subject:  


Terry,

It sounds like something is earthing-out the low tension side of the coils very briefly when the engine is cold (like turning-off the ignition for a split second)?

Have you tried disconnecting the IMA's (Idle Mixture Adjusters) to see what happens? The fact that one has been opened-up could be a clue?

Nick
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fogrider



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 63
Location: East Yorkshire

  

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: PGM blink  


Well, I unplugged the 4 IMA's and started the engine. Starts OK, PGM light on for longer periods and still the odd stumble. Plugged the IMA's back together, one by one, no detectable difference to the way it ran.

Did notice it seems more sensitive just under 3000 revs when the blink seems to happens more frequent.

It's becoming rather tedious, I'm no electronics expert !
Wish I'd stuck to an RC30, I want my carbs back !

Regards all....
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Busy Little Shop
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Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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Location: California USA

  

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:15 pm    Post subject:  


Terry... I'm no electronics expert either but I've learned that whether CARBS
or EFI, Motorcycle troubleshooting is a form of problem solving... It is a
logical search for the source of a problem so that it can be solved... it ain't
about jumping to conclusions...

I think for the IMA disconnect fault to be detected the engine must run
for a little bit longer...

OK... I reviewed my RC45 maintenance log for a possible solution...

36,824 mile mark red PGM warning light flickering... Trouble shot
charging system and discovered alternator out put was only 10V.

Installed new stock Honda alternator. Red PGM light still flickered
but the charging system was supplying just enough volts to charge battery.

43,620 mile mark our own Stephan cautioned to check orange connector on
the wiring harness that supports a number of ground wires for corrosion.
Removed orange connectors and applied Dielectic grease. This
fix cured the flicking PGM F1 problem for a while.




50,148 mile mark return of the PGM red light flickering… extinguished
light once and for all by removing orange box and soldering ground
wire connections together…





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Larry L
94 RC45 #2 / RC30 #44
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Last edited by Busy Little Shop on Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fogrider



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 63
Location: East Yorkshire

  

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:54 pm    Post subject: PGM blink  


Thanks Larry, I've just had a look and can't see that plug. Mine must be buried somewhere behind the frame rail and main loom. Will have a better look tomorrow.
The voltage problem is resolved, new battery and reg/rec and steady output at 14.3 so finding the earthing points is next.
It seems strange it's an intermittent blink and clears up when at full temperature after a few miles running.
I might try taking the tank off and checking all the sensors and pipes around the airbox .
That orange earth busbar first - once I've found it .
Regards, Terry.
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moto16



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
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Location: UK

  

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject:  


Terry,

Larry is probably onto your problem. If this connector is anywhere close to the exhaust headers, the heat transfer might be enough to make a "bad" connection OK?

The race team I help once had a similar problem at the TT, but the other way round - when the engine oil heated-up, the ignition pick-up started to break-down. The bike was OK when cold, but the big hit on the brakes at Ballaugh Bridge flooded the pick-up with red-hot engine oil and the bike got worse until it stopped at Ramsey.
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fogrider



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
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Location: East Yorkshire

  

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:43 pm    Post subject: PGM blink  


Thanks Larry, I've just had a look and can't see that plug. Mine must be buried somewhere behind the frame rail and main loom. Will have a better look tomorrow.
The voltage problem is resolved, new battery and reg/rec and steady output at 14.3 so finding the earthing points is next.
It seems strange it's an intermittent blink and clears up when at full temperature after a few miles running.
I might try taking the tank off and checking all the sensors and pipes around the airbox .
That orange earth busbar first - once I've found it .
Regards, Terry.
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Busy Little Shop
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject:  


You're welcome Terry... the orange box ain't easy to spot because it is covered
with the black wrap loom tape... I found mine by first noticing a square out line
in the tape and then cutting it free with a razor knife...
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Larry L
94 RC45 #2 / RC30 #44
https://www.youtube.com/user/BusyLittleShop/feed
http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/BusyLittleShop/library/ShangriLa?page=1
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/10503451@N07/
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fogrider



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 63
Location: East Yorkshire

  

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:02 am    Post subject: PGM blink  


I couldn't find that earth busbar anywhere. There's a bundle of 4 green earths to the frame where the reg/rec is bolted up but no bulge in the loom . Whilst the back of the tank was raised I checked what pipes etc were visible, all looks good.

I pulled the main fuse out, slightly grey, cleaned the socket with contact cleaner and put a new fuse in.


After that I got fed up , put the seat unit back on and will tax it and ride it when the weather picks up


Will let you all know if a good run will do the bike as much good as it will do me !

Regards, Terry. East Yorks.
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moto16



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: PGM blink  


[quote="fogrider"]I couldn't find that earth busbar anywhere. There's a bundle of 4 green earths to the frame where the reg/rec is bolted up but no bulge in the loom . Whilst the back of the tank was raised I checked what pipes etc were visible, all looks good.

I pulled the main fuse out, slightly grey, cleaned the socket with contact cleaner and put a new fuse in.


After that I got fed up , put the seat unit back on and will tax it and ride it when the weather picks up


Will let you all know if a good run will do the bike as much good as it will do me !

Regards, Terry. East Yorks.[/quote

Terry, as Larry has already said, it is buried within the loom and will be covered in multiple layers of black insulation tape (loom wrap). It will definitely not be instantly obvious where it is and I can't tell you because I've no experience of working on the loom of my RC45.
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fogrider



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
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Location: East Yorkshire

  

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:20 pm    Post subject: PGM blink  


I will try again, I have a few other priorities at the moment.

Someone local has pointed out that the PGM is fuel system only, no control over the ignition. So, why does the PGM blink also show a drop on the rev counter and a brief engine cut-out ?? How is it connected ?

Suggestion is there is an ignition system issue somewhere, it looks like start again !


Regards all
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moto16



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: PGM blink  


fogrider wrote:
I will try again, I have a few other priorities at the moment.

Someone local has pointed out that the PGM is fuel system only, no control over the ignition. So, why does the PGM blink also show a drop on the rev counter and a brief engine cut-out ?? How is it connected ?

Suggestion is there is an ignition system issue somewhere, it looks like start again !


Regards all


Terry, if it is an earth fault, they can cause all sorts of strange symptoms. It only has to make a sensor give a false output for a moment and hey-presto, you have your problem.

It could also be a dodgy sensor. On my Mrs's car years ago the EWT (engine water temperature) sensor had an intermittent fault. As the car was warming-up it would go open-circuit. This meant the signal to the ECU looked like the engine temperature had dropped to some crazy low level. The car would accelerate wildly for about 2 to 3 seconds as the ECU pumped a load of fuel into the plenum. It took me ages to bottom it, finally proved by monitoring the sensor in a warming jug of water.
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Busy Little Shop
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Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: PGM blink  


fogrider wrote:
So, why does the PGM blink also show a drop on the rev counter and a brief engine cut-out ?? How is it connected ?


Blink followed by a Drop revs could be when ECU switches over to limp home mode to assure engine operation even in case of malfunction sensor(s).

30410MW4601 UNIT COMP SPARK is as separate black box...
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Larry L
94 RC45 #2 / RC30 #44
https://www.youtube.com/user/BusyLittleShop/feed
http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/BusyLittleShop/library/ShangriLa?page=1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55532474@N00/?saved=1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10503451@N07/
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fogrider



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 63
Location: East Yorkshire

  

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject: PGM blink  


Thanks both for the comments, looks like I need to eliminate the various sensors , reading up on fuel injection systems I saw that our PGM system has a vacuum thing , a temperature sensor and an airflow thing, the fault - a minor blink/stumble as she warms up - could be caused by that part of the system. Unknown !

It's strange the PGM bridge test for faults says all is OK.

Oh well, I'll have another go in a few weeks...

Regards all, Terry.
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moto16



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject:  


What happens if the entire power supply is cut momentarily? This would certainly cause the misfire, but does it make the PGM light flicker as well?

Just a thought!
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